The Road to Autonomy Podcast

The Road to Autonomy hosted by Grayson Brulte is a podcast featuring unconventional conversations about the future of mobility.

Subscribe to The Road to Autonomy on

Apple Podcasts : Amazon Podcasts : Google Podcasts : Spotify

Mobility SPACs: Hype or Reality?

David Welch, Detroit Bureau Chief, Bloomberg joins Grayson Brulte on The Road To Autonomy Podcast to discuss the mobility SPAC market.

The conversation begins with David sharing his thoughts on the current state of the mobility SPAC market. He brings up the valid point of who is conducting the scouting and due diligence on the deals.

Grayson then asks David about the supposed due diligence that Steve Girsky’s VectoIQ Acquisition Corp. did prior to merging with Nikola and taking the company public via a SPAC transaction. Building upon that conversation, David talks about the in-progress Nikola / GM deal that has yet to close.

Expanding upon the conversation around Nikola and GM, Grayson asks David if Nikola would even have made it through a traditional IPO. David does not think Nikola would have made it through a traditional IPO process.

David suggests that GM originally did the deal with Nikola because the company had a hot stock at the time. Was the Nikola stock craze driven by retail investors on Robinhood? Perhaps, but we do not know.

Now SoftBank and Apollo Global Management have announced that are launching SPACs.

Real money is getting into the game. To me, that is a good sign. Those guys are professionals who invested in everything from publicly traded stocks already to startups and other private players.

They have made a lot of money so it’s more clear that they know how to do due diligence.

It’s a better bet than the more well-known SPACs that are out there.

– David Welch

Could this be a trend of blue-chip investment companies investing in less-risky electric mobility companies? BlackRock has invested billions in Rivian and Arrival. Both companies are being deemed less-risky than other mobility start-ups by the market. Rivian also has backing from Amazon.

Staying on the Amazon theme, Grayson and David discuss Amazon and mobility. What are the plans for Zoox? Will Amazon end up acquiring Rivian? Does Amazon introduce a mobility Prime service in the future powered by Zoox?

Amazon could have their own competitor to Uber and Lyft with Zoox controlled self-driving vehicles.

– David Welch

But who wants to own and manage the fleet? Does someone buy Hertz out of bankruptcy to carve out an autonomous vehicle management business? Or does Penske expand outside of trucks into autonomous vehicles?

Rounding out the fleet management conversation, Grayson asks David to share his thoughts on the Great Pivot from Self-Driving Cars to Self-Driving Trucks. The two discuss the economics of self-driving trucks and how the business has a path to profitability.

Did this path to profitability, impact Waymo’s decision to introduce self-driving trucks as the Waymo Via service? Grayson and David discuss Alphabet’s appetite to continue investing in Waymo without revenue.

When Alphabet breaks out Waymo revenue for the first time, it will have a positive impact on Alphabet’s stock price. One just has to look to the time when Amazon broke out AWS (Amazon Web Services) revenue and the impact the revenue breakout had on Amazon’s stock.

While Waymo is developing the Waymo Driver, Embark, Kodiak, and TuSimple have been focused solely on trucking from day one. Does this give them a competitive advantage? Perhaps.

Grayson and David go on to discuss the Universal Driver debate and how developing autonomous technologies for trucks operating on highways is different than developing the tech for dense urban environments such as San Francisco.

Staying on the theme of companies that are developing the Universal Driver, Grayson and David discuss Aurora and their many pivots. The two discuss Aurora’s business model and their seemingly never-ending stream of partnerships with no commercially viable products. Evolving into a larger discussion, the two discuss the need for partnerships in the autonomous vehicle industry.

Closing out the conversation, Grayson asks David when Tata Motors will make a move and introduce self-driving Jaguars and Land Rover Range Rovers through a partnership with an autonomous vehicle company.

Subscribe to The Road To Autonomy on Apple Podcasts

Autonomous Trucking Logistics

Jordan Coleman, General Counsel and Vice President of Policy, Kodiak Robotics joins Grayson Brulte on The Road To Autonomy Podcast to discuss autonomous trucking logistics.

The conversation begins with Jordan talking about his journey from corporate lawyer to start-up lawyer. His love of being a lawyer and working on transformative technology and what happened when Kodiak Robotics Co-Founders, Don Burnette, and Paz Eshel asked Jordan to join Kodiak as General Counsel.

As my parents like to say, I was a lawyer when I was two-years old at the dinner table, well before I ever went to law school.

– Jordan Coleman

Expanding upon the dinner table conversation, Grayson asks Jordan to dive into family dinners and to share his insight into what his family would discuss over dinner. Jordan credits his parents and family for encouraging him to explore intellectual curiosity and have healthy debates.

My dinner table was a debate club, my dinner table was public speaking 101 and my dinner table was definitely law school 101.

– Jordan Coleman

The conversation evolves from the dinner table to a discussion on why autonomous trucks and what problems autonomous trucks can solve. The impact autonomous trucks will have on the economy and society as a whole.

The economy can not function well without a well functioning logistics system.

– Jordan Coleman

Autonomous trucks will make the roadways of the United States safer for every single driver and passenger on the road. Autonomous trucks will be safer than human drivers as they do not get distracted, they do not drink and drive and they do not tailgate.

For individuals who grew up in the ’80s with a third-row rear-facing seat in the back of their parent’s station wagons commonly known as the way-back, don’t worry your children will still be able to play the “Truck Honk Game”.

There is nothing more mom and apple pie Americana than pulling the old air horn sign and the truck honking that horn.

– Jordan Coleman

The perception team at Kodiak is actively working on ensuring that when a child does the “Truck Honk” arm pull, the autonomous truck will honk.

In addition to working on the “Truck Honk”, Kodiak is actively delivering loads in Texas and learning how to operate in Texas. Kodiak is developing a technology that is solving pain-points and ensuring customer happiness.

While Kodiak is purely focused on highway driving for autonomous trucks, a majority of the autonomous industry is focused on passenger vehicles in dense urban environments such as San Fransisco. San Fransisco is a notoriously complex city to drive in (both human and autonomously), not to mention a stringent regulatory environment.

With the uncertainty around business models and the complexity of driving in dense urban environments, Grayson asks Jordan about “The Great Pivot to Autonomous Trucking” and why companies are pivoting from passenger vehicles to trucks.

Part of the pivot is being driven by the economics of autonomous trucking as there is a clear path to profitability. The other part of the pivot is being driven by the fact that autonomous highway driving is an easier problem to solve than driving in dense urban environments.

Then there is the opportunity based on trends, the growth of e-commerce, and cooking at home with farm-to-table ingredients. These goods and ingredients are shipped to consumer homes on trucks.

Wrapping up the conversation, Grayson and Jordan discuss the economics of autonomous trucks, the trend of asset-light businesses, and why autonomous trucking as-a-service will become a reality in the future.

Subscribe to The Road To Autonomy on Apple Podcasts

California’s Electric Future

Russ Mitchell who covers the rapidly changing global auto industry (with special emphasis on California, including Tesla, electric vehicles, and driverless cars) at The Los Angeles Times once again joins Grayson Brulte on The Road To Autonomy Podcast to discuss California’s Electric Future.

The conversation begins with a discussion about California Governor Newsom’s executive order to phase out gasoline-powered cars. Why this was politically savvy to appeal to the climate front, but the uncertainly that this will cause around the economics as an electric vehicle costs on average 30% more than a gasoline-powered car.

Grayson and Russ go onto discuss why this might create a grey market for gasoline-powered cars and what the supply chain for electric vehicles currently looks like in the Congo and China.

Following on this topic, they go onto discuss the conditions in which these minerals are mined, and if consumers will take the same active approach to blood cobalt as they took to blood diamonds and demand ethical mining.

Russ who lives in Berkeley, CA says that his friends who drive electric vehicles have not even thought about the ethical mining of cobalt. Companies are currently focused on shoring up the mineral supply chain at the moment.

While the supply chain and the ethical mining of minerals for electric vehicles remain a concern, the bigger question still remains: “How do you recycle electric vehicle batteries”. Grayson and Russ go onto to discuss this issue and how EV batteries can be reused for backup batteries for homes.

In California, Toyota and Honda were the top two selling brands in 2019, accounting for over 30% of all new vehicles sold in the State. Grayson and Russ go onto discuss why Toyota and Honda have to start investing in fully-electric vehicles today to not lose market share in California when new gasoline-powered car sales are banned.

In the late 2000s, the Toyota Prius was the “It Car” when it became a Hollywood status symbol thanks in-part to Leonardo DiCaprio who was driven to the 2008 Oscars in a Prius. Not to mention the thousands of photographs of him driving around LA in the car.

Today, Toyota no longer has the “It Car”, but they popularized the idea of driving an environmentally friendly car. The current “It Car” is Tesla.

While California may be on the edge of emerging trends, consumers are still not sold on electric cars. Only 2% of the 17 million light cars and trucks sold in the United States in 2019 were electric.

Could this be due to charging and charge time? Grayson and Russ discuss why consumers want to charge quickly and efficiently. This conversation raises the question, can the energy grid handle an increase in new electric vehicles?

With new electric vehicles coming on the market, Grayson and Russ discuss what the market would look like without Tesla’s Model 3. They go on to discuss how Elon Musk built Tesla into a brand that is a lifestyle choice for millions of individuals.

Grayson goes onto discuss how Elon Musk captured the public’s imagination that an electric can be cool, part of your lifestyle, accessible and approachable.

This evolved into a deep conversation about Tesla and what Elon has to do to continue to dominate the public’s imagination on electric vehicles. While the public’s imagination is important, quality control is even more important.

Wrapping up the conversation, they discuss the current state of the electric vehicle market and when brands such as Porsche, Land Rover, and Mercedes will make their big moves to gain EV market share from Tesla.

Subscribe to The Road To Autonomy on Apple Podcasts

If you have enjoyed this conversation, please listen to Grayson and Russ’s earlier conversation:

The Business of Self-Driving Cars

Innovation Improves Lives

Jesse Blumenthal, Vice President, Technology & Innovation, Stand Together and Director, Technology & Innovation at the Charles Koch Institute joins Grayson Brulte on The Road To Autonomy Podcast to discuss how innovation improves lives.

The conversation begins with a discussion around innovation in society and the positive impacts it has had throughout history.

Innovator used to be basically a synonym for a heretic. An innovator meant someone who challenge[s] the King or challenged the Church.

– Jesse Blumenthal

As more individuals are able to try new things, there are more attempts at innovation which has a positive impact on society. Following on this trend, the conversation expands to platforms and how they grow knowledge in society through access to information.

Today billions of individuals around the world access information through a simple search or a scroll of a newsfeed. But in 1992, that was not the case as only 10 million individuals around the world had Internet access. In 1994, only 24% of Americans had a computer at their home.

During the Clinton Administration, President Clinton and Vice President Gore encouraged the private sector to lead on the internet and develop technologies that will help usher in the “New Economy”.

It is the policy of the United States that the private sector should lead on the internet. Internet innovation should be lead by the private sector and not the public sector.

During the mid-’90s, consumers did not have a credit card on file. There was a healthy level of skepticism about doing business online. This all changed when the Clinton Administration stepped up and lead on innovation.

Staying on the topic of policy and innovation, Grayson and Jesse discuss the AV Start Act and why a national framework for autonomous vehicles is needed. Individuals do not think about driving from Boston to New Hampshire, but without a national framework, they will have to as the autonomous vehicle will not be able to travel over State lines.

While there is the national issue of an autonomous vehicle framework, there is the California State issue of Prop 22 and AB5. AB5 came to be law because of special interests and their desire to curtail the rapidly growing gig economy.

While special interests and the politicians who they back are trying to slow down innovation, entrepreneurs across America continue to innovate and look to the future.

Tech Moves Faster than Government and that is a good thing.

– Jesse Blumenthal

Staying on topic. Grayson and Jesse discuss the politics of ride-sharing, the gig economy, and the economic impact on society. The gig economy gives individuals flexibility and voters value flexibility.

With voters valuing flexibility, they also value their privacy. Apple has clearly demonstrated that consumers value privacy. While this approach works for Apple, it might not work for other companies.

Apple’s approach to privacy will benefit the company if and when they decide to introduce an autonomous vehicle service.

Closing out the conversation, Grayson and Jesse discuss what can be done to ensure that America continues to lead on innovation. Innovation that will improve lives and create new opportunities for entrepreneurs to build companies with outcome-based approaches.

Subscribe to The Road To Autonomy on Apple Podcasts

Global Perspective on Mobility and Cities

John Rossant, Founder & CEO of Commotion and Chairman of the NewCities Foundation joins Grayson Brulte on The Road To Autonomy Podcast for a global conversation about mobility and cities.

The conversation begins with a discussion around public transportation in Paris, New York, and Los Angeles. Grayson and John discuss the culture of cities and why this is one of the main defining factors of how and why public transportation is used in cities around the world.

From a discussion around culture and public transportation, Grayson shifts the conversation back to Paris where John started his career as the Europe Editor of BusinessWeek. While in the City of Lights, John saw the oncoming decline of print and joined the Publicis Groupe after a meeting and long negotiation with Maurice Lévy.

After several years of leading communications and public affairs, John became Executive Chairman of PublicisLive, producer of the annual World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. John shares his insights into Davos and how logistically challenging it is to put on the World Economic Forum each and every year.

Putting that all together is like putting a man on the moon in terms of complexity.

– John Rossant

Staying on the theme of the World Economic Forum, Grayson asks John to share his thoughts on the 2021 WEF Theme; “The Great Reset“. John shares his thoughts on what a dense urban environment will look like in a post-COVID world.

The conversation veers into a conversation about travel and virtual reality. John believes the future will be defined in a metaverse world. Grayson follows up by asking John about what impact a metaverse world will have on cities.

I find the idea of putting on a headset and walking down a canal in Venice in a three-dimensional way is pretty interesting.

– John Rossant

Keeping with a global flair, the conversation shifts into Saudi Arabi where Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman Al Saud is developing a city for the 21st Century with 21st Century technology from the ground up called NEOM.

NEOM imagines a city that does not have to built around the motor car. In fact, there won’t be a place in NEOM for the individually owned motor car.

– John Rossant

The idea of NEOM is to build a city from the ground-up that takes into account two of the big mega-trends of the modern world: mobility and energy.

Combining all of John’s career experiences, John and Grayson discuss the founding on CoMotion and why John chose to build the company in LA.

If LA could change, any city could change.

– John Rossant

Staying on the theme of LA, they discuss what LA will look like in the future and the role Urban Air Mobility will play in moving goods and individuals around the city.

With the 2028 Summer Olympics coming to LA, they discuss what transportation will look like for spectators who come to LA to enjoy the experience of watching the Olympic Games in-person.

Wrapping up the conversation, John shares his vision on the future of mobility and cities.

Subscribe to The Road To Autonomy on Apple Podcasts